Author Topic: Ship design rule of thumb?  (Read 16333 times)

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Offline MagusXIX

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2016, 10:20:55 AM »
The size scale of ships isn't utterly arbitrary, as I pointed out in an earlier post. While you can make 1,000,000 ton behemoths, sure, they're either going to be made almost entirely of engines or else be excruciatingly slow.  When talking about feasible designs and doctrines that work against human intelligence, there is an upper limit to reasonably effective ship sizes that's somewhere around 100k-150k ton extremes, give or take depending on the doctrines involved.  Again, this is due to engine maximum size being 2,500 tons and engine redundancy giving diminishing returns.  That 20th engine hardly adds anything of value to your ship, yet costs an extra 2,500 tons of space.  Of course there are always exceptions, but they're exceptions and not rules for a reason.  That 1,000,000 ton behemoth might actually be a serviceable jump point defense ship if it's brimming with the right weaponry, since speed doesn't matter so much on jump point defense.

This is what makes discussions of modern naval roles in Aurora worthwhile.  Especially in terms of making it easier to help new players understand ship design and fleet doctrine.  No one is saying you have to play a bog standard fleet that mirrors IRL fleets.  What we (I?) are saying is that it's worthwhile to consider them and incorporate some standard terminology from real life in order to avoid confusion among ourselves when talking about these things, especially with newer players or when making a guide.

Also, regarding cruisers, they're called cruisers because they cruise.  From Dutch kruisen, "to cross, sail to and fro." Back when a ship's travel range was a necessary consideration, the cruiser classification made a lot of sense.  These days, any respectable warship can cross oceans and so the classification has become somewhat obsolete.  In the vast majority of aurora games, however, range is a primary concern of ship design - and so the cruiser classification sees a lot of prominence and use.  The cruiser classification doesn't really have anything to do with "independent operations" (that's actually more the purview of capital ships, give or take, see the wikipedia article I linked earlier).  If a ship has the range to "cross oceans", it's a cruiser.  In Aurora terms, this means that a ship that is capable of traveling through many systems without refueling would be, by description, a type of cruiser.  They're the sort of ship that can go from one end of a massive colonial empire to the other without needing to stop for fuel.  They don't have to have weapons - you could have all sorts of support cruisers.  You could have a point defense cruiser.  Any type of <adjective> cruiser is a possibility!

It's also just common sense that unless a word has an agreed upon meaning, the word is pretty much useless as a means of communication.  There's nothing stopping us from making ships with no hangars and then calling them carriers except the need to have other human beings understand us.  I could make a ship with no engines or fuel and call it a cruiser, even though by common understanding of the word it isn't one.  The same could be said of any words.  I could call my dog a cat.
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2016, 10:54:26 AM »
Maybe a better tack would be to define roles.

As I see it, there are the following roles for ships:
  • Scout/Picket - Sensor ships. Scouts would be with a fleet, pickets would be stationed in a system.
  • Escort - dedicated fleet defense ship. This is the ship that defends the anti-shipping from the enemy's anti-shipping.
  • Carrier/Tender - carries fighters (carrier) or FACs (tender).
  • Capital - The ships that do the blowing of bad-guys up.

I've started defining ships by those broad strokes in my games. I usually further break down to the following

  • Destroyer - capital ship that is not jump capable.
  • Frigate - non-jump capable escort.
  • Cruiser/Battlecruiser/Battleship - jump capable capital ship. Actual designation relies on amount of armor.
  • Light Carrier/Heavy Carrier/Assault Carrier - Jump capable carriers. Actual designation relies on the number of fighter wings, which is defined as 10 fighters (or bombers)
  • Light Tender/Heavy Tender/Assault Tender - As above, but for FACs. A flight of FACs is 5 FACs.
    • I define a fighter as a fighter-class ship geared towards interdiction or anti-missile. A bomber is a fighter-class ship geared for anti-shipping.


Offline MagusXIX

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2016, 11:06:41 AM »
Those designations are pretty off compared to the commonly understood meanings of the words, which would be okay if we could get everyone on the same page with them.  Honestly, though, why reinvent or the wheel?  The work has already been done for us, and anyone with a working knowledge of military/naval history/current affairs will understand the bulk of these terms:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_naval_vessels
 

Offline Mor (OP)

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2016, 12:47:59 PM »
carrying fighters pretty much is the definition of a carrier though
Carrying fuel pretty much is the definition of a tanker. It doesn't mean that any ship that carry fuel is a tanker. Carrier is a ship that its primary role is carrying/deploying small craft.

Edit: You can have dedicated fleet carriers that just carry large wings of craft or they can sacrifice some of that capacity to have more armor/shields and Point Defense batteries, or maybe its a commercial survey carrier. But its not any ship that you define as "and it can also carry craft".
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 01:03:52 PM by Mor »
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2016, 12:56:48 PM »
Those designations are pretty off compared to the commonly understood meanings of the words, which would be okay if we could get everyone on the same page with them.  Honestly, though, why reinvent or the wheel?  The work has already been done for us, and anyone with a working knowledge of military/naval history/current affairs will understand the bulk of these terms:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_naval_vessels

That's the beauty of Aurora. Anyone can design a ship and call it what they feel best describes it. :)  Of course, without some form of reference beforehand, it might be confusing. Just look at the blind men and the elephant.

Offline Elouda

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2016, 04:30:08 PM »
Apologies if someone has addressed this already, but I saw this posted earlier on in the thread;

I think it's also worth pointing out that since engines max out at size 50, and having multiple engines gives diminishing returns on speed, there comes a tipping point with ship sizes.  For instance, a 50,000 tonne ship could have 5 size 50 engines in order to get 25% of its total size as engines.  That's already plenty of redundancy.  If you wanted to double the ship size to 100,000, that'd now require 10 size 50 engines to have the same 25% size/engine ratio! Since each additional engine add less than the previous one, you'll notice that as ship size goes up, speed goes down.  The theme here being that extremely large ships wind up either getting slower and slower or else needing to dedicate more and more of their total tonnage to engines.

Sorry, but this is utterly and completely wrong.

A 10,000 ton ship that dedicates 2,500 tons to engine space, will have exactly the same speed as a 1,000,000 ton ship that dedicates 250,000 tons to engines. In both cases the engines amount to 25% of total tonnage.

If you use size 50 engines on both of those (1 for the 10kton ship, and 100 for the 1mton ship), then fuel efficiency is also the same per ton moved.

In fact, its smaller ships that loose out, as to get any kind of redundancy in engines, you have to reduce engine size. The smallest practical ship (using 25% of space for engines) with redundant size 50 engines is 20,000 tons.
 

Offline MagusXIX

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2016, 09:41:52 AM »
Apologies if someone has addressed this already, but I saw this posted earlier on in the thread;

Sorry, but this is utterly and completely wrong.

If so, this could change my mind about a few things.  I could've sworn that diminishing returns from engines was a thing.  I'll have to test it again.  It's entirely possible I'm either misremembering or that the first tests I did years ago were flawed somehow.
 

Iranon

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2016, 02:15:43 PM »
Well, engines need to push their own weight so you get diminishing returns in the way that twice as many engines won't make the design twice as fast.

Some time ago, I did the maths for how things scale if we can play around with power multipliers to achieve a set design speed.
If there were just engine and mission tonnage (disregarding additional armour, crew accomodation  and possibly engineering spaces for the bulkier ship, additional fuel for the thirstier one), 60% engines would be the most fuel-efficent setup, 50% engines would minimise build cost for reduced-power engines. With boosted engines, the highest power multiplier we can achieve results in the lowest build cost..

When bulk is no issue but fuel consumption is, I like to go for 1/2 or 5/9 engine tonnage... but huge supercapitals that require considerable upfront investment in shipyards are a reason to go for something more compact. As are considerations of stealth or being used as a parasite craft.
 

Offline Mor (OP)

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2016, 01:38:58 AM »
Well, engines need to push their own weight so you get diminishing returns in the way that twice as many engines won't make the design twice as fast.
I am not sure. This only effects max speed, but if you take ship with x tonnage and speed y, and double the total tonnage and engines components, you'll still get speed y. No?
 

Offline Elouda

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2016, 01:45:22 AM »
I am not sure. This only effects max speed, but if you take ship with x tonnage and speed y, and double the total tonnage and engines components, you'll still get speed y. No?

Yes. And if you keep the total tonnage the same and double the amount of engines, you will get 2y.
 

Offline Mor (OP)

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2016, 08:57:54 PM »
No, he is right, there are more consideration than just tonnage. To achieve the same operation parameters you'l need much more than just double engines. The larger the ship the less free percentage you will have to play with.
 

Offline DIT_grue

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2016, 01:19:58 AM »
No, he is right, there are more consideration than just tonnage. To achieve the same operation parameters you'l need much more than just double engines. The larger the ship the less free percentage you will have to play with.
Cite, please.

Not only do I seem to recall Steve saying the opposite - using that as an example in explaining the system, even - the formulas given are linear: a ship twice as large but with twice the engines will have the same speed, twice the size with the same engines is half the speed, the same size but twice (or half) the engines gives twice (or half) the speed. And yes, I just pulled out a test game to make sure I wasn't talking through my hat.
 

Offline Mor (OP)

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2016, 05:38:15 AM »
Its common sense. Because double the size =/= double the tonnage, due to armor calculations (power 2). So if you just double the engines number, crew, fuel etc. You are going to need more armor plating for the bigger hull surface, thus heavier and slower ship.  This would be most notifiable on heavily armored BS.
 

Iranon

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2016, 06:04:35 AM »
But wrong. For a ship with twice the payload and the same speed/range, you need less than twice the armour to get the same thickness. You can also lose some deadweight (the bridge, maybe something else like duplicate sensors).
Your argument only makes sense if you demand your twice-as-capable ship be armoured at twice the thickness... which is a red herring.
 

Offline Mor (OP)

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Re: Ship design rule of thumb?
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2016, 09:05:05 AM »
The larger the ship, the more armor will be required to maintain the same armor rating. Hence double the size >> double the tonnage. Since you need to compensate by either adding more engines or removing something from the original design, this will increase engine % of total tonnage...